Feature: Child's Play: From Bokunatsu To Natsu-Mon - The Kaz Ayabe Interview

For those of us in the Northern Hemisphere, summer has come to an end. Fortunately, through the magic of video games — and the video games created by one man in particular — it's never too late to take a little summer holiday...

With the recent English-language release of Spike Chunsoft’s open-world summer simulator, Natsu-Mon, coming hot on the heels of 2022’s Shin-chan: Me and the Professor on Summer Vacation, and the upcoming Shin-chan: Shiro and the Coal Town, the time seemed right to sit down with Natsu-Mon director, game designer, and writer, Kaz Ayabe. We discuss the hard-earned breakthrough in the West of the ‘cosy game’ genre he helped establish in Japan with his long-running series Boku No Natsuyasumi — colloquially known as ‘Bokunatsu’ — made popular on PlayStation, PlayStation Portable, and PlayStation 3.

Over the course of two days and nearly six hours of conversation, Ayabe-san graced my wife and interpreter, Joy, and me with engaging, enthusiastic, and frequently hilarious conversation in which he discussed his current projects like Natsu-Mon and Shin-chan, as well as past efforts such as Attack of the Friday Monsters! and, of course, the Boku No Natsuyasumi series. Other topics that surfaced during our in-depth chat were his love of electronic music, his Tokyo curry restaurant, and preserving the fleeting magic of childhood through the interactive art form of video games.

As we conducted the interview online, we made our introductions to Ayabe-san over Zoom, introduced our very Boku-esque 10-year-old son to him on-screen, and got to know each other a bit before jumping right into the conversation. As such, the contents of our workspace were visible to him, and so begins perhaps the most comprehensive overview of Kaz Ayabe’s works (in English) ever documented.

Kaz Ayabe: [Noticing our Bluetooth speaker] Oh, the small speaker on the floor is the same as mine. The wooden portable speaker.

Nintendo Life (James Mielke): The [House of Marley] Bag of Riddim? Oh it has such good sound, doesn’t it? Speaking of music, is it true you really like electronic music a lot?

KA: That's right. Yes.

NL: Who are your favourite musicians?

KA: Well, I listen to a lot of music, so it might be hard to say who they are. I was born in 1965. In my generation, the Yellow Magic Orchestra was prolific during our middle school and high school years. That's where it started. We all grew up listening to YMO.

NL: I discovered YMO—well, I always knew about YMO—but I really got into YMO through [the late WARP founder and game developer] Kenji Eno. Because he was a YMO maniac. Every time I would visit the FYTO [formerly WARP] Studio in Ebisu, we would basically drink and listen to YMO. We’d listen to every YMO spinoff, like Human Audio Sponge, HAS/YMO, and the band’s individual solo projects. It was always a YMO marathon whenever I visited him.

The only time I was able to see YMO in concert was after the 3/11 disaster in Japan, and YMO held a ‘No Nukes’ concert in 2012 at Makuhari Messe [Interviewer’s note: The location of Tokyo Game Show] with Kraftwerk headlining.

KA: I went to see that concert at Makuhari Messe!

NL: Wow, we were there together 12 years ago.

KA: Yeah.

NL: So I want to speak to you about your body of work, but more from your perspective and approach as a creator and less specifically about the individual games themselves, because my former colleague, Ray Barnholt, already did such a fantastic job with that with his own magazine. I’d basically like to pick up where he left off, so for Natsu-Mon, how did this project come to life?

Were you inspired after, for example, the Shin-chan games –– did you have some kind of momentum, and think, “I'd like to do more of this,” but with something new and an original IP? Or was it Spike Chunsoft who reached out to you and said, “Hey, Ayabe-san, would you be interested in making a new series for us?” How did it all come about?

KA: [Natsu-Mon developer] Toybox approached me first. Toybox is a company created by [Harvest Moon creator, Yasuhiro] Wada-san and they make the Bokujo [Harvest Moon] series. They basically said, “If you’re interested in making a summer vacation game on Switch, we can help find funding for the development costs.”

So, it was decided from the beginning the hardware would be Nintendo Switch, and since the budget was quite large, I decided to make an open-world game instead of a 2D game. That's how it started. The publisher, Spike Chunsoft, came on board later. We had the developer first and then the publisher joined later.

NL: Natsu-Mon is interesting to me because the development team, Toybox, has made a lot of games in the past, but nothing quite like this game. One of the games that my 10-year-old son and I played the most of this past year has been Tears of the Kingdom. In regards to the open world, it really reminds me of Tears of the Kingdom. It really kind of expands the feel of your ‘summer games’ concept, because you're not restricted to preset camera angles as with Bokunatsu or Shin-chan. You can run everywhere. If you see it, you can run there, or you can climb it. Of course, the vibrant colours really remind you of Japanese summer, too.

KA: Thank you very much. Originally, when I made my first game in 2000, there was no word for ‘open world’ at the time. But I wanted to make a game like this one. I wanted to make a world where everything was made in 3D. But at the time, we didn’t have the technology. So I used 2D anime backgrounds to make my summer series.

For Natsu-Mon, we had the technology to bring my vision to life. I also had fun playing Zelda: Breath of the Wild [when it was released]. So when I decided to make an open-world game, I was inspired by Breath of the Wild. In Japan, it's the most popular game. So I thought that if I made it like that, everyone would be able to play it.

I've been thinking about making a game like this for the past 20 years, and I think I finally achieved that goal.

NL: So people playing Natsu-Mon should just be able to jump right in and start to get going. I felt the same way. It is a very comfortable game. Of course it doesn't have crafting systems or anything; Natsu-Mon keeps things simple. You didn't give into the temptation to overload the game with too many systems. For example, I like the fact that the fishing is very simple, whereas in other games it can get very convoluted with timing meters and things like that. Is ‘keeping it simple’ a game design philosophy of yours?

KA: There are three reasons. First of all, considering the current trends in Zelda I thought I could make a lot of things but to be honest I didn't have that much budget [...] but another thing I used as a reference was an indie game called A Short Hike. A Short Hike is similar to Zelda in that if you get more hearts you can climb higher walls. Fundamentally, Zelda and A Short Hike are the main inspirations for [Natsu-Mon], with Bokunatsu aesthetics on top. I believe that Bokunatsu is pretty well refined, so I didn’t want to make it any more complex than the Boku series. So it was my intentional decision not to make the gameplay any more complex than what you see in my prior games and that’s why you don’t see any craft elements in Natsu-Mon.

Fundamentally, Zelda and A Short Hike are the main inspirations for [Natsu-Mon], with Bokunatsu aesthetics on top.

The other thing is that I presumed that Nintendo would be releasing new hardware soon and we would miss our opportunity to release the game on the current system if we didn't release the Japanese version last summer. So we developed the game in a year and a half, which is quite short, but we had a relatively large team and these factors came into play for the underlying reason for a lot of the design decisions.

Players who are not familiar with the Boku series might not be familiar with the insect collection feature. In the insect collection, there's a mode where you can see the insects up close with poem-like texts about the insect and detailed explanation of the insects. After the Japanese release, we spent a year to update this feature version which we put in the English version.

Combined with the development for the Japanese release and the extra year before the English release, we spent two and a half years for the English version. Once the Japanese version was released we evaluated areas of improvement, like making it easier to control and speeding up the tempo in certain areas, and adding fortune-telling for the English release.

NL: Are those improvements that were created for the English version patched back into the Japanese version?

KA: Yeah there was a patch in June for the Japanese version.

NL: It's interesting, because historically you've taken a lot of opportunities to create a director's cut. The first Bokunatsu on PS1 –– you ported the game to PSP –– and that version incorporated a lot of upgrades and fixes and improvements over the original release. You're always improving your games. Do you consider the US version of Natsu-Mon the director's cut?

KA: Yes. We were originally working on this as the director's cut, although it’s not officially released as a 'Director’s Cut' in the title. The development of the Japanese version took a lot of time and pressure to make. After the Japanese version was released, parts that we decided that we wanted to do another way were changed for the English version.

NL: Since Spike Chunsoft is an international publisher — they usually release their games internationally — was Natsu-Mon always planned as a Western release in addition to the original Japanese release?

KA: Yes, that's right. Initially, we didn't know when it would be released. But we had already decided to make an English version and release it on Steam.

NL: So how does that compare to Bokunatsu 24 years ago? How does your design process change, if at all, when you know that you're developing a game for a global audience rather than a Japan-specific audience?

KA: Actually, the first Bokunatsu initially had a global release planned. Consequently, it wasn't released overseas due to various market circumstances. I like old movies and watch them a lot. I find that especially old Japanese movies that have a high rating don't pay much attention to foreign audiences. I think that's the strength of Japanese movies and has a more international appeal. So when making Natsu-Mon, we were conscious of selling overseas, but not too much.

I thought it would be okay if we made something that we thought was interesting. Rather, we made it with the idea that if we made something interesting as Japanese people, it would be more interesting for the overseas audience. Of course, I thought it would be a problem if there was no hook at all. So we decided to set the game in 1999 as a nostalgic year that people all over the world can relate [to].

NL: Turn of the century 2K timing.

KA: Yes, that's right. I felt that the adults around the world can kind of think back and feel nostalgic for 1999.

NL: While the kids should be attracted just to the colourful and simple designs and ease of gameplay. I'm a big fan of movies too. I watch a lot of Japanese and foreign movies, and Godzilla Minus One is a very Japanese movie that has received a lot of international acclaim. It has a lot of relatable things in common for a global audience. There's a lot of human drama in it. Like you said, as it's more Japanese-centric than internationally-focused, it’s probably why it's very popular in the West.

KA: In my case, when I'm making a game and I don't know which direction to choose, I tend to choose the wilder one. For example, if a developer has three choices, they usually just choose one, right? But this time, I decided to include all three choices.

by adding a little bit of selfishness from the game developers, I thought it would leave a lasting impression on the gameplay

Usually if I did that, maybe the player would get irritated, but I thought it was okay because it gave the game originality. I felt that I was showing my unique personality by choosing the wilder option of providing the player with more choices than limiting the options to one. My creative decisions were based on my personal preferences and not on trying to please the overseas markets. There are decisions that were made with the overseas market in mind. For example, I tried to make the insect collection set a little more luxurious and interesting, but for the most part, I didn't want to make it for people overseas.

NL: Can you give us an example of how this manifested in the game?

KA: When you're introduced to Kyoko's character at the very beginning, there are three different introductions that the player can chose from. Usually, there would just be one response from Kyoko. I decided to leave in all three phrases and the player can go back and listen to her different introductions. That's one example where we left all three lines in the game instead of just simplifying it. One reason for it is that we happened to come up with three good answers. [laughs]

If every conversation was like that, there would be a problem. But by adding a little bit of selfishness from the game developers, I thought it would leave a lasting impression on the gameplay.

NL: I noticed that. Usually when you deal with NPCs in games, you get one static line of dialogue, and it's almost a cliché. But I noticed that the conversational paths with each character at least generate a couple different responses each time, which I thought was very refreshing.

Speaking of Kyoko, one of the fun things to see every day is the different dishes that she prepares. It's always a very interesting selection, and it reminds me actually of Japan, because every day it veers wildly what we're going to have for dinner. Does that come from your own personal interest in delicious food, or your curry restaurant?

KA: When I first started making Bokunatsu 24 years ago, the food in games generally looked terrible. I figured we could do better to illustrate food in our games. That was the starting point.

NL: Between your work that helped establish the ‘cosy game’ genre, and your focus on making sure that food looks delicious in games, it seems like it would be a very natural thing for you to develop a cooking-themed game. Have you ever considered this?

KA: Let's see... In the '80s or '90s, there was a game called Dungeon Master. I’m not sure if that’s the English title [Interviewer's note: It is]. That was a game that had delicious-looking meat in it. I thought it would be interesting to make something like that in my games, as well.

NL: It's interesting that Toybox approached you about making a summer game. There's something really wholesome about how they reached out to you specifically about this. Because when you think of ‘summer game,’ you think of ‘Ayabe Kaz,’ right? I wonder, would they have been able to make Natsu-Mon without you?

KA: I think it's better that they asked me to make it. [laughs]

NL: In the Bokunatsu days, we didn’t have things like Twitter and Reddit, so it was difficult to take feedback from the public and implement improvements until you actually created a sequel. But nowadays, since you can patch things in, of course the internet gives you direct feedback on Twitter or other channels. Has there been any feedback about Natsu-Mon in particular that you've taken to heart and are considering for the future?

KA: Yes, especially after the English version came out, first of all, compared to people in the English-speaking countries of America, England, and Australia, there has been a lot more feedback from people in Europe, from people outside of English-speaking countries, and I think that was interesting.

I've forgotten the details, but there was someone who wrote that it was a game that “made me feel warm, like I was enclosed in a blanket,” and that made me really happy. Also, the feedback from people in Japan was interesting. There were a lot of people who said they thought it was another Bokunatsu game, but it turned out to be 'Natsu-Mon of the Wild.' In varying degrees and different ways, but basically it was a more rambunctious game than they expected. As a creator, I made it to be a pretty wild game, so I'm really happy about that.

NL: Personally, when I'm playing, even though your games are very low-pressure, and you can play however you want to, I feel like even though I've got this list of things to do, like climb these towers, find rare fish, find rare bugs, my personal struggle with the game is prioritising what to do because it's so open-ended. I'm not exactly sure where to go or what to do in what order, and sometimes when I forget about a daily routine, like doing my morning exercises, I get really OCD about it and I'm like, 'Damn it, now I’m missing a stamp in my stamp collection.' So I'll get mad at myself.

KA: Well, for example, you can purchase a chestnut gun –– a toy gun that shoots chestnuts that you collect from under chestnut trees –– and use it to catch bugs. At first, I thought everyone would use the chestnut gun to catch bugs but we’ve found that players have preferences and it wasn’t always the case.

We also found that many times, even when the mission is clear, players will find themselves distracted on their way to completing the mission and start doing something else. But that's actually exactly what we wanted and it's intentionally in the game because that's kind of what summer vacation is. Kids going off to do random stuff without a particular mission in mind.

NL: My 10-year-old son is someone who gets easily distracted like this. So basically, the game makes me a 10-year-old boy again. But is learning these things conducive to replaying the game? Because basically, while I appreciate revisiting the 10-year-old in me, the adult gamer in me wants to min-max the perfect summer. So I want to get everything, I want to achieve everything. I want to get all the stamina medals and climb all the towers and I don't want the summer to end having missed out on anything, even though that seems like it's the point.

KA: I personally don't like to complete games or, you know, min-max or 100% the game. Of course, when I'm making my own game and when we're testing bugs and stuff, I'll complete it and 100% the game. But when I'm playing for my own enjoyment, I don't like to do that, so maybe I'm not really ... maybe I'm still kind of like a child. I don't have the need as an adult to complete things.

NL: On that note, when you're designing a game — one of these summer games — do you put so much into the game that it's not really possible, based on the time limit, to actually complete everything in the summer?

KA: I mean, it's possible, it's actually possible, but I don't put it in there as a goal. I know that there are people who like to complete a game, so we have designed it so that it's possible to complete it, but obviously that's not the purpose of it, and I want people to play it in the way that they find it enjoyable, but I do think that maybe I added a little too many bugs in the game. [laughs]

NL: I know that the game just came out in the West so it’s a little too soon to tell how well it’s doing here, but how has the game done in Japan so far?

KA: The Japanese version was [released] at the end of last summer, and it’s sold just over 100,000 copies which isn't bad, but I was hoping it would sell a little bit more, so I mean it's not bad but it wasn't great.

NL: Do you think the awareness among the Bokunatsu crowd is high enough and do they recognise that this is sort of like a spiritual successor to the Bokunatsu series?

KA: Well, the title is different so people thought it was a different game at first. But when they actually played it, they quickly realised the rules were the same. I was the one who designed the map and wrote the text. So I think the essence is pretty much the same. I imagine the players assumed it might be different at first, but when they played it I think they recognised similarities to the Bokunatsu series.

By the way, as a creator, the era has changed, the character designs have changed, and the 2D has become 3D. So even though the way it looks has changed, I'm making it as if it's a Bokunatsu game. So it's not officially a Bokunatsu series, but as a creator, I'm making it as if it's a Bokunatsu title and I think players can consider it to be the next successor in the series, or ‘Bokunatsu 5.’

I think players can consider [Natsu-Mon] to be the next successor in the series, or ‘Bokunatsu 5'

NL: On that note, I haven't started a New Game+ yet, but is Natsu-Mon set up so that there's a reason to go through a second time? Like, if you didn't get all the exercise stamps on your stamp card.

KA: There are a few things… One, you can transfer everything that you collect from the first game when you start over. You can play the things you already have over and over again. That gives you an advantage when you're replaying it. It gives you a different experience. The basic storyline is the same, but it's impossible to experience everything in one go. So if you play it two or three times, especially if you go to places you haven't been to before and during a time of day that you haven’t before, I think you can experience a lot of new things.

And one more thing. Before the game was released in Japan, we gathered people from the Japanese game media and we all went to Niigata on the Shinkansen from Tokyo to do an overnight press tour. We took everyone to see a real live circus together as part of the media PR event. Part of the PR event was an opportunity to play the game. And there was a moment when the eyes of the people from the media really glowed with awe. It was the same moment where even I got lost in the game, as well, while making the game.

There are a lot of rocky mountains in the sea. It was really fun to start climbing this steep rocky mountain. There are items to collect at the rocky top, naturally. But, the key thing is that it’s not something that you might usually think to do. I encourage players to push the boundaries on where and what you think you can do and collect in the game. I think that’s the key to fully enjoying the game.

NL: I really wanted to play through the DLC before this interview, but I didn't have enough time, so I'm really looking forward to it because I know that you get a glider, similar to Tears of the Kingdom. It should be fun seeing how different the DLC is from the base game. Before we move on to other topics, I want to ask if you have any visibility on whether or not Natsu-Mon could turn into a new franchise.

KA: So while it hasn't been a super bestseller, I personally would like to see it become a series, but we haven't... it hasn't come to that yet.

NL: OK. So now we'll work backwards a little bit. We'll touch upon the Shin-chan series, and Attack of the Friday Monsters, and then we'll talk about Bokunatsu at the end...